Episode 244
American Pie (1999) with Willz Talks
This week we are joined by Willz Talks to discuss the 90s raunchy comedy classic American Pie, the defining fill of Jason Biggs' career. It may seem like there isn't much to say, but upon examination it turns out there is a lot lurking beneath the surface of this incel predicting pie.
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Transcript
Track 1: Hello, and welcome to Left of the Projector. I'm your host, Evan,
Speaker:Track 1: back again with another film discussion from the left.
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Speaker:Track 1: of our weekly episodes that drop every Tuesday. and now on to the show.
Speaker:Track 1: This week on Left of the Projector we're keeping it light and full of sex and
Speaker:Track 1: by that I mean we're discussing the 1999 teenage comedy American Pie directed by Paul Weitz.
Speaker:Track 1: This film was a smash at the box office netting $235 million on an $11 million
Speaker:Track 1: budget and I do wonder how much of that went to Eugene Levy's salary.
Speaker:Track 1: It stars Jason Biggs, Chris Klein, Natasha Lyonne, Tara Reid,
Speaker:Track 1: of course Eugene Levy, Shannon Elizabeth, and many more.
Speaker:Track 1: Our guest this week is will who you may know from instagram as will's talks
Speaker:Track 1: thank you for being here today happy.
Speaker:Track 2: To be yeah it's fantastic i got a pitch being like leftist movies and i was
Speaker:Track 2: like i need an excuse to watch a movie and talk about leftism it's great fun so and.
Speaker:Track 1: Like a good.
Speaker:Track 2: Light-hearted break from what i've been doing which is coverage of iran which is not as fun.
Speaker:Track 1: Yes i mean i do enjoy when we do a movie that's less serious too and this is
Speaker:Track 1: the complete opposite so i don't know do Do you want to tell people about your your Instagram?
Speaker:Track 1: Obviously, you do cover news stories and politics and that kind of thing.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah, I do. I do a huge set of things. I do a lot of like current events stuff.
Speaker:Track 2: I do a lot of like anti-propaganda, like Zionists make an infinite amount of
Speaker:Track 2: content for me because I follow them and then I respond to them,
Speaker:Track 2: pointing out how silly and wrong they are.
Speaker:Track 2: And like trying to kind of build up people's response to imperial propaganda,
Speaker:Track 2: I guess, would be the biggest bit. And then making sure that like people even
Speaker:Track 2: like good meaning leftists don't report things poorly or wrongly or ways that
Speaker:Track 2: play into the hand of the imperialists we're working against.
Speaker:Track 2: So I guess that's the overarching thesis. And otherwise, I'm just a leftist
Speaker:Track 2: out here saying leftist things.
Speaker:Track 1: It's a very good service. And I think that I actually, I was remembering the
Speaker:Track 1: first video I think I saw when I came on your channel,
Speaker:Track 1: I think, was responding to people who say that we're taking a complete 180 from American Pie.
Speaker:Track 1: But I think, but it was about how you, people who talk about how Israel is controlling
Speaker:Track 1: the United States versus sort of the other way around.
Speaker:Track 1: And I'm like, man, people need to say that more because it drives me crazy when people say that.
Speaker:Track 2: Trying to pull in all these like a lot. There's a lot of populism around in America.
Speaker:Track 2: And, you know, the Nick Fuentesites are trying to pull it all in.
Speaker:Track 2: And I'm trying to like make a starch divide between those because it's so true.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah. Like it's also that's American exceptionalism.
Speaker:Track 2: It's this idea that we somehow need like someone blackmailing all of our elites
Speaker:Track 2: to be evil as if they like won't do it voluntarily is a wild concept to me.
Speaker:Track 2: It's like they're they're pro bono evil people. Like they don't need they don't
Speaker:Track 2: need this like cabal controlling them to do genocide.
Speaker:Track 2: They'd love doing it. it's like their favorite hobby so yeah it's it thank you
Speaker:Track 2: i appreciate that was it it was a video i got some flack for but for from the worst people ever the.
Speaker:Track 4: Only yeah the only american exceptionalism that we really need to encourage
Speaker:Track 4: is the belief that america is exceptionally evil they don't need help they don't need anybody else.
Speaker:Track 2: Truly truly we are always It's consistently surprising me how horrible this empire can be.
Speaker:Track 2: It is the largest, most violent empire the world has ever seen.
Speaker:Track 2: But even then, I'm like, I don't know.
Speaker:Track 2: I see the Portuguese and I'm like, people don't know how horrible you were.
Speaker:Track 2: But at least they lost after a while.
Speaker:Track 4: Or the French.
Speaker:Track 2: Or the french oh that's allowed but it's shitting on the french i mean i'm very
Speaker:Track 2: pro shitting on the french but it is a bit it's a bit overdone but yeah yeah yeah people but.
Speaker:Track 4: People shit on the french for mostly the wrong reasons that's.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah yeah they.
Speaker:Track 4: Shit on them for like all the wrong reasons.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah it's not just that they're cringe and have bad food that they like committed
Speaker:Track 2: a bunch of genocide yeah um which not enough people talk about also their numbers
Speaker:Track 2: i'm happy to shit on their food their.
Speaker:Track 4: Numbers in french i mean make no sense and they're stupid.
Speaker:Track 2: You know what i i could get down with that though barring like barring the racism
Speaker:Track 2: and genocide i i i think silly language is good fun like that i'll i'll stake that flat i.
Speaker:Track 4: Will for the most part agree with you except when it comes to the french.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah,
Speaker:Track 2: true true yeah and just wait until the right wing finds out how our numbers
Speaker:Track 2: are enumerated with arabic numerals they're gonna be going they're gonna be wild they.
Speaker:Track 4: Do that it keeps cropping up that crops up.
Speaker:Track 2: Like every few years.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah so well i you picked american pie to discuss and so i'm curious why you chose it.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah so i hadn't seen american pie i'd seen american pie
Speaker:Track 2: two girls rules and i was like
Speaker:Track 2: so which okay great comparison
Speaker:Track 2: point by the way i love sequels top three sequels you
Speaker:Track 2: know sing to legally blonde to red white and blonde
Speaker:Track 2: the bible but it was like sequels are really good um so i was like i've seen
Speaker:Track 2: the sequel of this i might as well see the first one and also like american
Speaker:Track 2: pie come on like i'm always like i'm anti-american i'm trying to anti america
Speaker:Track 2: pill everyone this is a great thing to talk about like to deconstruct american
Speaker:Track 2: nationalism And like that was like the vague idea.
Speaker:Track 2: I knew it was kind of just like a classic period piece type vibe.
Speaker:Track 2: And it was it lived up to my expectations. You know, like what more could you
Speaker:Track 2: expect from such a thing of like someone fucking a pie as an allegory for vagina?
Speaker:Track 2: That's hilarious. And there's so much to say about that. And,
Speaker:Track 2: you know, I didn't know what I was going to go in, like to actually talk about.
Speaker:Track 2: I got a bunch. It was so on the nose.
Speaker:Track 1: I yeah I'm I'm very curious but I mean so I was going to jokingly ask because
Speaker:Track 1: the the sort of base premise or sort of the majority of this film is sort of
Speaker:Track 1: leading up to prom and so I'm going to ask a random question which one of out
Speaker:Track 1: of all of you did any of you go to your prom which prom I already know the building.
Speaker:Track 1: High school.
Speaker:Track 4: Yeah. But many high schools had both a junior and a senior prom.
Speaker:Track 3: No.
Speaker:Track 1: Okay. So I'll go with senior prom. I did. I went to. I also did.
Speaker:Track 2: Yes.
Speaker:Track 4: Did you? So, well, I think it's safe to assume you're, you're a little younger
Speaker:Track 4: than, well, like Evan and I and possibly Ward.
Speaker:Track 4: Are you of the promposal generation?
Speaker:Track 2: So I'm of that generation, unfortunately. But I.
Speaker:Track 2: Although, you know what? I will say, I prefer a promposal generation than a
Speaker:Track 2: gender reveal generation, and my generation is anti-gender reveal.
Speaker:Track 2: I'll give you that. So I'll take some pride in that. But I did not promposal.
Speaker:Track 2: I think it was kind of— Yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: That's what it was leading into.
Speaker:Track 4: Yeah, that was really the question, is whether you had to date.
Speaker:Track 2: I didn't promposal, because I—yeah.
Speaker:Track 4: Yeah, I showed them out.
Speaker:Track 2: I didn't promposal. I took a guy to prom in the South.
Speaker:Track 2: so it was i i was already i was already slaying enough i mean no one could like
Speaker:Track 2: that was set in stone very very interesting experience i was in a blue blue
Speaker:Track 2: city it was totally fine but you know i wasn't i didn't need to make it any cleaner than it was yeah.
Speaker:Track 4: They didn't exist when when i went to prom so i was.
Speaker:Track 2: Just well thank god well thank god which.
Speaker:Track 4: Is like yes i went to my i went to my both my junior and senior prom i.
Speaker:Track 1: Wasn't a judgment that wasn't why it wasn't like a.
Speaker:Track 4: Judgment I didn't think so to say I find prom movies fascinating because first I.
Speaker:Track 2: Do
Speaker:Track 4: Think that my prom especially like my senior prom experience was atypical but
Speaker:Track 4: I still like watch these movies and I'm like does anybody is anybody are their
Speaker:Track 4: lives like this like does anybody does prom exist like this in any reality like
Speaker:Track 4: I always wonder and especially like.
Speaker:Track 2: Oh I was like yes like this is very similar
Speaker:Track 2: to some of the people i knew that went to prom so maybe
Speaker:Track 2: we live in different realities but i was like no i
Speaker:Track 2: mean obviously no one was fucking a mother that i know yeah
Speaker:Track 2: you don't know it wasn't as far outside of the realm of possibility you know
Speaker:Track 2: i was in like a like a like a super like racially segregated white community
Speaker:Track 2: in prom like super like affluent this type of shit would happen it was um it
Speaker:Track 2: was relatable somebody's mom was everything though A nauseating culture in my...
Speaker:Track 2: Inevitably. Inevitably. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: Some of the mom was trying to be too cool. It was actually very,
Speaker:Track 2: very, what I would really relate to is the mom in Mean Girls.
Speaker:Track 4: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: Who's like dancing along with her, her child. I'm like, yeah,
Speaker:Track 2: that, that, that is someone at my school.
Speaker:Track 4: Would yeah that's that's what i was thinking too it's it's just funny because
Speaker:Track 4: you know like this movie is very much like i mean this was for our youth evan
Speaker:Track 4: and i like this was like this is,
Speaker:Track 4: from our like you know this is this came out a year before i think either one
Speaker:Track 4: of us graduated high school so like yeah this is like that's wild this is like
Speaker:Track 4: like this is our adolescence this is the cultural zeitgeist of our adolescence,
Speaker:Track 4: which is fucking wild.
Speaker:Track 1: I know. It dated me. Yeah, it makes me feel extremely old.
Speaker:Track 1: And the thing I was going to ask, too, was do you think this was an accurate
Speaker:Track 1: portrayal of high school?
Speaker:Track 1: So for people maybe who don't know the context of the film, obviously we'll
Speaker:Track 1: talk about it, but it takes place in sort of a wealthy Detroit suburb.
Speaker:Track 1: And so I would imagine that in these types of places,
Speaker:Track 1: I think that maybe not this massive you know
Speaker:Track 1: mansion like they had by the by the lake but i think having these big parties
Speaker:Track 1: and you know this whole experience i think isn't that atypical you know it doesn't
Speaker:Track 1: necessarily mean that all of us experience that necessarily but i think it's
Speaker:Track 1: probably more common you know than maybe we realize i don't know that's just my thought.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah i mean i would say i went to an after party that i slept over at after prom and
Speaker:Track 2: in a I did like it's a thing and
Speaker:Track 2: like it had a few people like with similar behaviors I think
Speaker:Track 2: it I think it happens and I was like not cool in
Speaker:Track 2: high school like I don't know like and I presume I'm not in
Speaker:Track 2: the company of many people that perceive themselves as cool in high school and
Speaker:Track 2: so I I think it did happen I don't know I don't know that's that's my perception
Speaker:Track 2: in like like affluent white suburbs this is like a experience I like I actually
Speaker:Track 2: think watching the movie I was like a lot of this fits into like my perception
Speaker:Track 2: at least of like the idealized form of america um that's around in those areas especially i.
Speaker:Track 4: Feel like warden i have such like we have warden i have like just like this
Speaker:Track 4: like ward didn't go to prop and like my experience because of who i was dating
Speaker:Track 4: at the time was like this is just like a totally different like experience yeah i.
Speaker:Track 3: Didn't really grow up around money.
Speaker:Track 4: Either i grew up in like bumfuck middle.
Speaker:Track 3: Of nowhere south like when we partied in high school it was on somebody's dear
Speaker:Track 3: lease like that's where we did it.
Speaker:Track 4: That's yeah that's a.
Speaker:Track 2: Big difference i.
Speaker:Track 3: Didn't experience any of this shit i could believe it happening especially around
Speaker:Track 3: people with money but like yeah i wasn't around that yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: I mean it's funny you were talking well before about the uh the idea of like
Speaker:Track 1: well from your what's your channel and
Speaker:Track 1: then into this is like american exceptionalism how do you see this film,
Speaker:Track 1: especially seeing it for the first time like i think if i had seen it for experience
Speaker:Track 1: for the first time i think maybe like the way you would perceive it might be
Speaker:Track 1: different not like in a bad way but how do you see it like fitting into american
Speaker:Track 1: exceptionalism because i think that was one of the things you sort of mentioned
Speaker:Track 1: ahead of time like nationalism and this whole kind of concept yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: So the nationalistic like overtone like okay i'll just i'll kind of like a front
Speaker:Track 2: load like my thesis on this film like regardless of.
Speaker:Track 1: Nationalism i like my thesis on this film is that it's.
Speaker:Track 2: Like the inception of incel culture. This is the incel film.
Speaker:Track 2: Like, if I was growing up watching, like, if I was like an incel,
Speaker:Track 2: even like in my generation, I was trying to be like, like, cool.
Speaker:Track 2: And like, in the same way fascists study history, like, this is something I
Speaker:Track 2: would watch and be like, yeah, bro, like, exactly.
Speaker:Track 2: So like, that's, and I have a bunch of notes on like, exactly what lines up
Speaker:Track 2: with incel culture on this.
Speaker:Track 2: But I think just the way that like, American men, but as to nationalism,
Speaker:Track 2: the particular plot point that like, was very nationalistic was the
Speaker:Track 2: plot point with the eastern european woman where they
Speaker:Track 2: basically like like film her like like in
Speaker:Track 2: an unconsensual manner and then like the way
Speaker:Track 2: that that's that's portrayed is both very inceli because like her
Speaker:Track 2: sexuality is not seen as embarrassing like for existing it's
Speaker:Track 2: like nina's performance but then when he does anything sexual it's
Speaker:Track 2: like embarrassing um and it's like very much how incels view sexuality but then
Speaker:Track 2: also like the the the characterization of eastern european women as the characteristic
Speaker:Track 2: of post-Soviet East-West relations. Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: And then obviously the representation of like American pie as a nationalist
Speaker:Track 2: symbol of like, you know, like an object for the American man to, you know, fuck.
Speaker:Track 2: But other than that, like the nationalism, like talking about nationalism was
Speaker:Track 2: kind of actually surprisingly quite hard.
Speaker:Track 2: I didn't find a lot of a lot of really helpful nationalism things other than
Speaker:Track 2: the motivational speech where like patriotism and like nationalist like like
Speaker:Track 2: crescendos when he's like, we need to if we can get it.
Speaker:Track 2: we need to get it like the coach speaking that was very much like.
Speaker:Track 1: Oh yeah yeah that.
Speaker:Track 2: The way that.
Speaker:Track 1: That was like a that was like a meme before memes existed like when he repeats
Speaker:Track 1: what he says like you know the other coach is repeating him like you know well
Speaker:Track 1: so you know in a way i think it might be interesting because you're the so i
Speaker:Track 1: i wrote down all the characters and it seems very.
Speaker:Track 1: Like the incel concept you're talking about. So each of the characters seemingly
Speaker:Track 1: fits in like a completely different sort of stereotype of American, like a high school.
Speaker:Track 1: And it's interesting that somehow like they're all friends too.
Speaker:Track 1: I mean, I guess like tendentially through choir and other things,
Speaker:Track 1: each of them go through and maybe I'll like briefly go, I'll go through like
Speaker:Track 1: what I wrote that mostly is a sort of kind of what Wikipedia says as like the
Speaker:Track 1: character, but just sort of my perception of them too.
Speaker:Track 1: So you have the Jason Biggs character, sort of like this clumsy,
Speaker:Track 1: not great at school, but very Jewish coded because he has, you know,
Speaker:Track 1: his dad is obviously Eugene Levy.
Speaker:Track 1: And then you have Oz, who's like the jock, but he's also friends with the non-jocks.
Speaker:Track 1: Kevin is sort of, I would view as maybe, I mean, you can all,
Speaker:Track 1: you know, tell me what you think of these.
Speaker:Track 1: It's sort of like the good student and kind of a normal-ish kid.
Speaker:Track 1: And Stifler, of course, is like the asshole jock persona.
Speaker:Track 1: Finch was sort of like the wealthy kid. And then you have the band dork, which is Michelle.
Speaker:Track 1: Sort of Chuck, who, you know, gets humiliated later, is sort of like the nerd kid.
Speaker:Track 1: Vicky is sort of like the hot, smart, very naive.
Speaker:Track 1: Jessica was sort of like the, played by Natasha Lyonne, sort of like floats
Speaker:Track 1: between all the cliques.
Speaker:Track 1: It's sort of like cool, almost feels like she's older than the rest of them.
Speaker:Track 1: And then Heather, the other girl in the choir, is sort of like the goody two-shoes.
Speaker:Track 1: and these all represent to me just this wildly different perceptions of what
Speaker:Track 1: high school was like so i'd.
Speaker:Track 3: Say finch was like a hipster not the rich kid.
Speaker:Track 1: Interesting okay um.
Speaker:Track 3: And stifler is the rich asshole jock.
Speaker:Track 1: Yes he was like that's.
Speaker:Track 4: Right yeah i never like oh yes stifler i never got the impression that finch
Speaker:Track 4: was rich not that i mean not that it really matters he.
Speaker:Track 1: Doesn't get rich vibes.
Speaker:Track 4: No um I'm just kind of like uptight. I find it interesting that you...
Speaker:Track 4: peg jason biggs as like jewish coded
Speaker:Track 4: because like other than the fact that like eugene levy
Speaker:Track 4: is you know like jewish and like
Speaker:Track 4: it is very like you know i feel like it's
Speaker:Track 4: a part of his persona as like
Speaker:Track 4: an actor even like as a public figure but like
Speaker:Track 4: we get no notion of
Speaker:Track 4: that in the movie like the only reason and
Speaker:Track 4: like i'm not disagreeing with you because i still took
Speaker:Track 4: that in as well and like the entire time i'm watching i'm like i'm like am i
Speaker:Track 4: just reading this because i know eugene levy you know like or is there something
Speaker:Track 4: about this character that they want us to think that and i'm just just curious on that.
Speaker:Track 1: He also was very technologically smart i
Speaker:Track 1: mean i don't know i mean no what do you think well
Speaker:Track 1: the these like characterization of or even like the jason
Speaker:Track 1: big's character maybe that's like projection like i'm a i'm a jewish myself
Speaker:Track 1: and i remember seeing it as a teen and thinking like oh like eugene levy is
Speaker:Track 1: like this funny you know jewish actor and then you have like his son obviously
Speaker:Track 1: is a jewish kid too so maybe it's like projection for me the.
Speaker:Track 3: Character is james levenstein so there's like another.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 4: I'm sorry wait what's his last name,
Speaker:Track 4: levenstein see i didn't know that okay see that changes everything okay ignore everything i said.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah i didn't know that.
Speaker:Track 4: I didn't know his last.
Speaker:Track 2: Name was that.
Speaker:Track 3: Do they ever mention.
Speaker:Track 4: His last name.
Speaker:Track 3: Like once i think in full.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah i.
Speaker:Track 4: Didn't know that.
Speaker:Track 2: Can i know all the all the men have last
Speaker:Track 2: names only like two of the women have last names which is
Speaker:Track 2: like obviously this is sexist i'm not gonna keep repeating
Speaker:Track 2: that it's sexist because that's a given that it's like a 2000 like
Speaker:Track 2: male fantasy movie whatever like it's
Speaker:Track 2: very obviously sexist it's horrible but just as a note this i just realized
Speaker:Track 2: this that yeah um like only vicky latham and uh michelle uh flority um have
Speaker:Track 2: last names or and uh and the mother stifler but heather jessica and nadia don't have last names but.
Speaker:Track 4: Stifler's mother doesn't actually stifler's mother may have a last name but
Speaker:Track 4: she basically doesn't have a name She is basically just identified as Stifler's mom.
Speaker:Track 4: The only reason we know her name is like, like that's, you know.
Speaker:Track 3: Subsequent films.
Speaker:Track 4: Yeah. Like she is completely dehumanized, like 100%.
Speaker:Track 1: All the, all the women you mentioned that don't have last names,
Speaker:Track 1: I feel like are 100% more objectified than any of the other women.
Speaker:Track 1: Not that they all aren't in some way in this film, I think, but,
Speaker:Track 1: you know, especially like Nadia as this Czech student, extremely sexualized,
Speaker:Track 1: you know, they're, you know,
Speaker:Track 1: abuse the, you know, the taking me on a, on a, the live cam,
Speaker:Track 1: you know, without her knowing about it. And then, I don't know.
Speaker:Track 1: I mean, I think maybe I should have led at the top too, like very sexist movie,
Speaker:Track 1: not yet misogynistic, you know, all the things you'd expect from a film from 1999.
Speaker:Track 3: Enough surprisingly american pie 2 passes the bechdel test.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah i i think it's interesting to talk about exactly how um but also yeah like
Speaker:Track 2: i think it's a tie between vicky latham and heather but what surprisingly american.
Speaker:Track 3: Pie 2 passes the bechdel test.
Speaker:Track 2: That's genuinely surprising because it's just a direct inverse of this.
Speaker:Track 4: Is that what it is i don't remember it at i think i saw it i don't wait.
Speaker:Track 3: I watched it today i subjected myself to it.
Speaker:Track 4: Why i.
Speaker:Track 3: Got time off man i don't know.
Speaker:Track 4: What the fuck to do with myself.
Speaker:Track 3: When i got this much time honestly it's.
Speaker:Track 2: Not horrible i trust that it's like bad as like a thing i've watched it like
Speaker:Track 2: three times like across different contexts.
Speaker:Track 3: I'm not gonna lie i i have a favorite moment from more from the second one than
Speaker:Track 3: anything from the first like what.
Speaker:Track 2: Were the were the sex toys going off.
Speaker:Track 3: No that's my favorite no when fucking jason big bigs glues himself to himself
Speaker:Track 3: and then the has the vhs tape glued to his hand.
Speaker:Track 4: Oh i remember that oh.
Speaker:Track 3: That's pretty good hilarious physical comedy so fucking funny.
Speaker:Track 4: I i'm.
Speaker:Track 1: Gonna have to re-watch just watch that clip tomorrow because.
Speaker:Track 4: I find save.
Speaker:Track 3: Yourself the time.
Speaker:Track 4: I find the michelle character to be the
Speaker:Track 4: most interesting representation of people
Speaker:Track 4: like high school like her character
Speaker:Track 4: is by far the most interesting to me especially because i
Speaker:Track 4: know for a fact that uh in reality i mean
Speaker:Track 4: except at least in my reality that i
Speaker:Track 4: grew up in band people were the horniest people in high school and the most
Speaker:Track 4: yeah like that the portrayal of the band nerds is so oddly accurate but also not,
Speaker:Track 4: in a negative way like it's such a weird her portrait it it feels like an outlier
Speaker:Track 4: in the entire thing like her character she feels like an outlier to me well.
Speaker:Track 1: I have another note later that may be different but go ahead well.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah i i was gonna say i think maybe i'm too maybe i'm
Speaker:Track 2: like i want to fit it all into a superstructure but like i think i think
Speaker:Track 2: she makes a lot of sense i think it may like in the
Speaker:Track 2: way that this is if you like characterize this as an incel film
Speaker:Track 2: the role that the band nerd is taking
Speaker:Track 2: and especially the fact that at the end she leaves him
Speaker:Track 2: like high and dry yes um as like the bit makes a lot of sense in terms of like
Speaker:Track 2: how incels see women and how they see especially like if you like like go like
Speaker:Track 2: punch down you know like what will happen to you if you like punch down then
Speaker:Track 2: like you won't be like a permanent relationship or like women like the this you know all that stuff i.
Speaker:Track 4: Think i was uh tainted by the metatextual knowledge that like within the canon
Speaker:Track 4: of the American pie movies, uh, they get back together and I believe get married in the end.
Speaker:Track 4: So, you know, that might've, uh, take it, that might've, you know,
Speaker:Track 4: might've affected my viewing of her character.
Speaker:Track 1: The Pi-verse?
Speaker:Track 4: The Pi-verse, yes. I can't believe I know these things. I have not seen...
Speaker:Track 1: Well, the one is called American Wedding. I mean, it's pretty, like...
Speaker:Track 3: It's not great.
Speaker:Track 4: Why do I know this?
Speaker:Track 1: This is another thing, too, because you're talking about sort of maybe the stereotypes,
Speaker:Track 1: and I think a lot of them are fitting these stereotypes or archetypes.
Speaker:Track 1: Then this is also a story that I know from before. So John Cho,
Speaker:Track 1: who people know mostly from or often know from the Harold and Camargo to White
Speaker:Track 1: Castle, and he's like the MILF guy.
Speaker:Track 1: I think that's how he's credited in the movie as, you know, coining the term MILF.
Speaker:Track 1: Apparently, the director who made Danny Liener, who made Harold and Camargo
Speaker:Track 1: to White Castle, wanted to pick, chose John Cho to audition for that Asian character in that movie.
Speaker:Track 1: because in this film like unlike most high school films asian characters are
Speaker:Track 1: often made into like a stereotype and made fun of and in this they don't actually
Speaker:Track 1: do that which is i mean good i heard it here first on left on the back for not
Speaker:Track 1: being racist but maybe you know uh.
Speaker:Track 4: It's shocking though like it is like it is such an interesting thing though
Speaker:Track 4: it's like because it's Like I, as watching there, I don't remember what point
Speaker:Track 4: it was, but there was a point where I was like, oh, this is, this is an incel movie.
Speaker:Track 4: Like I did have that same thing. I was like, oh, this is an incel thing. This is this.
Speaker:Track 1: Kevin, Kevin. Do you see him as like the, the, like the main.
Speaker:Track 4: It is Kevin's character. Kevin's character is so incel coded in such like a deep, deep seated way.
Speaker:Track 4: and everything he talks about right down to like the part in the prom where
Speaker:Track 4: like he is still on it and everyone else is just like, you know,
Speaker:Track 4: grow the fuck up and he's like no i'm still
Speaker:Track 4: gonna be mad about it and it's like but like
Speaker:Track 4: it's just wild but it's like they're so hyper fixated on being terrible in very
Speaker:Track 4: specific ways in seldom came like in seldom became an established phenomenon around the same time.
Speaker:Track 2: Who's to say like.
Speaker:Track 4: It so like you know i want
Speaker:Track 4: i want you to you know give your whole like theory
Speaker:Track 4: but like i've read you know about this like you're
Speaker:Track 4: obviously you're familiar with like the woman who like coined the term correct yes
Speaker:Track 4: okay so and you know like she
Speaker:Track 4: didn't anticipate this it was not the intention it was not her intention she
Speaker:Track 4: is much like the man that invented golden doodles very much regretting her creation
Speaker:Track 4: if you don't know about that yeah the guy that invented golden doodles is like
Speaker:Track 4: i should never have done this it was a terrible mistake um uh in 2018,
Speaker:Track 4: in 2018 is like when she like started i'm
Speaker:Track 4: that's what she was talking i'm sorry in 2018 is when she's like talking
Speaker:Track 4: about how so this started around 1997 um when she was like right it was like
Speaker:Track 4: a mailing list and a blog and then by 2000 it'd been passed off to somebody
Speaker:Track 4: else and then kind of metastasized into what we know now as incel culture.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah. I was just listening to the Behind the Bastards on this.
Speaker:Track 4: Released in 1999.
Speaker:Track 2: Shout out OtherPod. But very good episode on Behind the Bastards with CoolSum Media on incels.
Speaker:Track 2: They went through the whole etymology of it. It was wild.
Speaker:Track 4: So your thesis, Will.
Speaker:Track 2: Okay. The film, like going through the whole film, it starts with the biggest
Speaker:Track 2: offense to an incel possible, right? Which is an ugly man getting laid.
Speaker:Track 2: You know, like that is the impetus of this whole thing is like an ugly guy gets laid before them.
Speaker:Track 2: And they're like, this is not right. This doesn't align with my worldview.
Speaker:Track 2: And that's the incel worldview that like it's a sexual market, you know?
Speaker:Track 2: and so they they all go through what is
Speaker:Track 2: effectively looks maxing or different approaches gesture maxing looks maxing
Speaker:Track 2: right fraud maxing a series of things to to get women not a single one of them
Speaker:Track 2: at any point ever asks a woman what they like ever you can go through the whole
Speaker:Track 2: film they never ask a woman the closest they get is what i.
Speaker:Track 1: Think that guy oz at one point was like oh what what do you like but then they
Speaker:Track 1: sort of immediately don't show you what she says so.
Speaker:Track 2: When like in bed like the only the closest is when uh like what is what is his
Speaker:Track 2: name uh myers is eating out his girlfriend and is like oh do you like this and
Speaker:Track 2: then she just like moans that was the closest i saw okay.
Speaker:Track 4: Oz attempts to get the college girl to i guess go down on him when he says,
Speaker:Track 4: suck me beautiful, which like.
Speaker:Track 2: Oh, Oz is the closest to humanizing a woman.
Speaker:Track 4: Yeah, because then the college, the college woman, the college girl literally
Speaker:Track 4: says to him, like, that's not the way you talk to women.
Speaker:Track 4: And he actually listens to her.
Speaker:Track 4: He actually, like, yes, he joins the glee club or whatever, the vocal jazz club
Speaker:Track 4: or whatever as a means of, like, ingratiating himself with women.
Speaker:Track 4: but his like entire approach to it is of the least dehumanizing and the least
Speaker:Track 4: because like in the end like he actually does like work on himself he actually
Speaker:Track 4: does grow as a character more than any other character in this entire movie yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: He's the only redeemable one of the group.
Speaker:Track 4: A hundred percent all.
Speaker:Track 1: Right so we'll back to the thing i need to need to know this so okay the First
Speaker:Track 1: is the ugly guy gets laid. So what happens after that?
Speaker:Track 2: That's true of all incels, by the way. They all hate this, you know?
Speaker:Track 2: They all think that there's like a natural order. So yeah, that's the start.
Speaker:Track 2: And then Stifler is the Chad, by the way.
Speaker:Track 2: Like, this is the most controversial part of this theory. But Stifler,
Speaker:Track 2: he actually, like, at the beginning, also fucks.
Speaker:Track 2: He's the only one that canonically gets laid without going through this process, right?
Speaker:Track 2: He fucks at his parties previously, right? and he's like the model for all of
Speaker:Track 2: them and it also starts with violence to the Chad by making him you know drink
Speaker:Track 2: the cum which is just which the audience is meant to identify with.
Speaker:Track 4: My god yes oh my.
Speaker:Track 2: God,
Speaker:Track 2: So, like, incels hate chads because they see them as competition.
Speaker:Track 2: They hate people who are getting laid who are seen as below them because they
Speaker:Track 2: see it's, like, outside of the natural order, right?
Speaker:Track 2: And then this is them trying to, like, look max or whatever.
Speaker:Track 2: Like, the multiple approaches there are to things. And then one of them becomes
Speaker:Track 2: nihilistic and ends up getting with the band girl. And he gets rewarded for
Speaker:Track 2: that, for punching down.
Speaker:Track 2: But then he gets punished at the end by her leaving. And then also,
Speaker:Track 2: I also want to note, they never ask a woman, the dad, do we,
Speaker:Track 2: we literally never hear a word out of the, um, the Levenstein out of Jim's mother.
Speaker:Track 1: She just screams. Like she says like one thing, like, can I come in or something?
Speaker:Track 1: And then she screams and runs out.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah. She's like, she is not a character. Whereas like, it's once again,
Speaker:Track 2: the, the man giving the advice, the only dialogue is between like men.
Speaker:Track 2: It's also, um, what is this? Kevin Myers.
Speaker:Track 2: He gets his advice from like the book. Right. So even when he's trying to figure
Speaker:Track 2: out what women like, he doesn't ask them.
Speaker:Track 2: He asks other men for the secret to treat women as an object and just how to eat them out well.
Speaker:Track 2: Which, by the way, straight men, yes, do this research. You could also just ask a woman.
Speaker:Track 2: I'm in support of straight men learning this. I'm in support of straight men wearing deodorant.
Speaker:Track 2: To that extent, looks maxing, yes. If looks maxing means being a tolerable human
Speaker:Track 2: being. Were there any other really good examples of this?
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah, but going through this whole thing of seeing it as them trying to increase their SMV...
Speaker:Track 2: pretty much explains like quite a lot of the dynamics that are going on between the four of them.
Speaker:Track 1: And kevin the way his sort of like story arc
Speaker:Track 1: goes he's complaining the whole time about how he can't get
Speaker:Track 1: laid his you know his girlfriend won't sleep with him and then
Speaker:Track 1: when they finally do and they break up he plays like the
Speaker:Track 1: scorned person who's now going to go off to college and be like a miserable
Speaker:Track 1: incel i mean he's like yeah the the he's just he's been a woman has hurt him
Speaker:Track 1: even though like it was generally mutual they like have this long-distance relationship
Speaker:Track 1: it's not gonna work also she was probably too cool for it but i mean.
Speaker:Track 3: Even before that like near the end like kev's the one who's all like whenever
Speaker:Track 3: they find out the shermanator fucked which he didn't at the time but like he's
Speaker:Track 3: like oh i put in all this time it's like it shows that same mentality like he's such a piece of shit.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah also kevin like this
Speaker:Track 2: is like the only people that actually enjoy sex are
Speaker:Track 2: Oz and Stifler because
Speaker:Track 2: Jim gets left at the end like all the merit that right Kevin gets punished for
Speaker:Track 2: like having sex emotionally because like he was forced to like say I love you
Speaker:Track 2: or whatever and then he left you know so everyone else gets punished for doing
Speaker:Track 2: anything other than being a cuck or a chad.
Speaker:Track 4: Okay this is fascinating and to take it to the next level I want to talk about
Speaker:Track 4: the screenwriter of this movie, whose only credits are,
Speaker:Track 4: American Pie, American Pie 2, American Wedding, American Union,
Speaker:Track 4: American Pie Presents, Girls' Rules, two other things.
Speaker:Track 4: Go Fish, a show which made five episodes and like two of them were aired,
Speaker:Track 4: and My Best Friends Girl,
Speaker:Track 4: which features Dane Cook as Sherman Tank Turner,
Speaker:Track 4: a helpline operator with a side business of taking
Speaker:Track 4: ladies on nightmarish dates and it
Speaker:Track 4: has Jason Biggs in it okay this movie this
Speaker:Track 4: man is like I think
Speaker:Track 4: that we could make a reasonable assumption that
Speaker:Track 4: this man isn't isn't incel and like this is his career like his like all he
Speaker:Track 4: has done is write movies about like how men are like deserve like should just
Speaker:Track 4: get you know like they deserve sex and women are you know victimizing them because they're not he.
Speaker:Track 1: Was 27 when he wrote this movie too so he was like sense post-college you know
Speaker:Track 1: didn't get a girl in college and you know blames everything and so this is him
Speaker:Track 1: being able to relive his high school experience by.
Speaker:Track 4: Actually getting the girl.
Speaker:Track 1: Maybe i don't know who he is in the movie in the movie who's his character kevin it's.
Speaker:Track 4: Every like it's shocking like looking at this it's shocking.
Speaker:Track 2: Man yeah no
Speaker:Track 2: i think um yeah i i think it's i think they hit on a bunch of like kind of classic
Speaker:Track 2: tropes like i mentioned like the eastern european girl being like a madonna
Speaker:Track 2: no it'd be like oh like not not madonna whore um as like that archetype um of
Speaker:Track 2: just being a pure sexual object, right?
Speaker:Track 2: With absolutely seemingly no offense to having been exposed on a webcam,
Speaker:Track 2: right? Like there's a scene later.
Speaker:Track 4: Yeah, she's totally okay with it.
Speaker:Track 2: She's totally okay with it, allegedly. And also women are watching on the webcam.
Speaker:Track 2: They cut to women watching on the webcam, which is, and I was like,
Speaker:Track 2: this is obviously like women would not, like they would go and tell their friend
Speaker:Track 2: that they're being like, like sexually abused.
Speaker:Track 2: It's so it was like clear, it's clearly written very much by a man.
Speaker:Track 2: with like not even attempting to think about in reality
Speaker:Track 2: how women act and this is like just like the
Speaker:Track 2: very foundation of incel ideology which is like and even
Speaker:Track 2: even um the guy who ends up getting with the mother right like
Speaker:Track 2: mothers are seen as like like like milf is
Speaker:Track 2: like a term for a reason they're seen as like the peak sexual like object
Speaker:Track 2: like the like they're ungettable um and it's like an
Speaker:Track 2: effect and it's actually much more being only defined as
Speaker:Track 2: someone's mother you're literally you're literally just doing
Speaker:Track 2: an offense to that guy it's like fucking their girlfriend right and
Speaker:Track 2: so he did that through like be what like
Speaker:Track 2: not not jester maxing some might say but like you know like like nuance maxing
Speaker:Track 2: like like kind of doing this particular like uh like uh what is he what did
Speaker:Track 2: i write down like being very like oh i know i know scotch i know all of these
Speaker:Track 2: things um and increasing your value in that way.
Speaker:Track 4: It is explicitly made clear within the film that by having sex with his mother,
Speaker:Track 4: he is claiming, like he is dominating him. Like it is explicit in the film.
Speaker:Track 4: It is not, it is not hinted at. Like it is very much, there is not a single
Speaker:Track 4: woman in this movie with the exception of Heather who are,
Speaker:Track 4: who is not treated by the,
Speaker:Track 4: like the, the men as like property or just like an object.
Speaker:Track 4: like Oz and Heather's relationship the only thing that comes close to you know
Speaker:Track 4: like they have actual like conversations he fucks up he apologizes he works
Speaker:Track 4: on like you know and she actually has like,
Speaker:Track 4: the wherewithal and like the autonomy to be like fuck you like calls him out
Speaker:Track 4: on shit and like you know books and things beyond it it's yeah yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: There's also jet so on heather i agree but she also never stands up for herself
Speaker:Track 2: um she's not written to stand up for herself right he just like realizes he
Speaker:Track 2: was wrong why did he realize he was wrong because a man talked to him the coach um.
Speaker:Track 4: She stands up to him when she sees him when she sees him talk when when she
Speaker:Track 4: at she leaves lacrosse game and she sees um yes oh yeah yeah she she also straight
Speaker:Track 4: up she's like i don't want to see you and she cuts him off i.
Speaker:Track 3: Mean even when he volunteers for like the duet she's like comes up to him he's
Speaker:Track 3: like what are you doing this for it's like well this is like isn't you gotta
Speaker:Track 3: actually practice like you got to make this thing happen like.
Speaker:Track 4: Yeah that's.
Speaker:Track 2: True okay point point point taken.
Speaker:Track 1: I think oz so all of them all of the characters in this feel like they deserve
Speaker:Track 1: or expect to get sex from someone except for oz maybe at the beginning he did
Speaker:Track 1: but as i think you said before bill or maybe will the fact that he like actually
Speaker:Track 1: has a somewhat of a character growth he
Speaker:Track 1: like he actually changes his behavior whereas later i don't i think he actually
Speaker:Track 1: genuinely is doing things because he wants to like he doesn't actually have
Speaker:Track 1: sex because you know the the the,
Speaker:Track 1: worst version of this would be he makes heather
Speaker:Track 1: you know sleep with him in some way as opposed to just sort of she's not ready
Speaker:Track 1: yet so we're not gonna you know we're not gonna do it but they all have this
Speaker:Track 1: expectation and um there's something else i was going to mention about the like
Speaker:Track 1: him them sharing the feed of Nadia is,
Speaker:Track 1: there something in incel culture to a you know like almost sharing,
Speaker:Track 1: um I don't know what the word I'm thinking of sort of like um,
Speaker:Track 1: sexual conquest yeah but he doesn't even but initially he's not actually sharing
Speaker:Track 1: her at first he's just gonna watch the video camera at his friend's house and
Speaker:Track 1: then when she seems like maybe he could you know go back he does.
Speaker:Track 2: I don't know it's something i i mean i it fits into the dehumanization where
Speaker:Track 2: like the women aren't seen as characters they're seen as objects right and like
Speaker:Track 2: they're seen also as collective objects like in in many ways in cell culture
Speaker:Track 2: is very individualistic but also the whole entire bit is like built on forums
Speaker:Track 2: talking to each other They're about how to get women.
Speaker:Track 2: And that's this whole movie where it really doesn't matter which woman.
Speaker:Track 2: It really doesn't matter how it happened. It just matters that you do.
Speaker:Track 2: And a success for one, that's the point of the pact, is a success for all of them.
Speaker:Track 2: If one of them fucks, that is just as fulfilling as the other ones.
Speaker:Track 2: So they're seen as kind of collective property.
Speaker:Track 2: The only time that is broken is when someone below them is seen to a fuck or
Speaker:Track 2: someone above them. Right.
Speaker:Track 2: But amongst them, just as Myers's brother has solidarity with them and the father
Speaker:Track 2: of Jim has solidarity with them, all of them are kind of seen as like collectively the everyman.
Speaker:Track 2: And they're also who the audience is written to align with.
Speaker:Track 2: I also want to note the only other woman that isn't directly a sexual object is Jessica.
Speaker:Track 2: Right. The person that is paid.
Speaker:Track 2: i don't know i'll say this is a queer person i think she's written as a lesbian
Speaker:Track 2: or as queer of some form um if you look at how she's dressed and she.
Speaker:Track 4: Never has does.
Speaker:Track 2: She ever have any sexual things.
Speaker:Track 4: No yes she does she does not have any in the film but they are it is specific
Speaker:Track 4: it is directly addressed that she has sexual experience she um if she is written
Speaker:Track 4: as queer it is specifically It is queer in the sense that, um,
Speaker:Track 4: not, you know, not that she is lesbian, but that a queer in a,
Speaker:Track 4: a sociopolitical sense and a liberatory sense and that she may be, you know,
Speaker:Track 4: either bi because it is, it is made clear that she has had sexual experience
Speaker:Track 4: with men and like, not like, oh, you know, like, yeah, I've had sex with a man, but I actually prefer.
Speaker:Track 4: no she is self like she is self-possessed she owns her sexuality um.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah i think i think that's accurate i was tricked by the hat.
Speaker:Track 1: Well she she's giving it i mean she's giving advice to vicky and then later
Speaker:Track 1: when she gives finch the little um the flask she's sort of like oh he's like
Speaker:Track 1: oh and he she she basically says like you know i'm not gonna sleep with you
Speaker:Track 1: and he's like oh i you of course not and so i sort of took that to mean well go ahead i.
Speaker:Track 4: Just i just think this is a cultural thing it was the 90s um everybody dressed like that um so.
Speaker:Track 2: That had such a choice
Speaker:Track 2: you know like it's incredible it's kind of incredible i will say i stick by
Speaker:Track 2: i think she is like written as she's written like as not a sexual object in
Speaker:Track 2: the film um and the only way you get away with that as being queer in some way
Speaker:Track 2: could be socio-political or some other,
Speaker:Track 2: like, I don't actually know how to describe that archetype, but she certainly
Speaker:Track 2: is like a best friend. Yeah.
Speaker:Track 4: She is, in my eyes, she is the,
Speaker:Track 4: it's the like i'm not like other girls like she is the archetype that is like
Speaker:Track 4: it's she's the outsider in a lot of ways and it's the kind of like you know
Speaker:Track 4: she has separated herself from the whole thing and she has seen that way um.
Speaker:Track 1: That's where i said before at the beginning she sort of like floats between the
Speaker:Track 1: different friend group because she doesn't seem to have any connection
Speaker:Track 1: to one of them because maybe they all see her as kind of
Speaker:Track 1: an outcast i mean she's friends with uh vicky i mean i
Speaker:Track 1: realized that but seems like she had because she also is the one spreading the
Speaker:Track 1: rumors for money so clearly i think that's why i thought that um finch was rich
Speaker:Track 1: because he has like the 200 bucks to give her to spread the rumors maybe that's
Speaker:Track 1: what anyway yeah i mean that does seem like a lot that'd be a lot of money in 1999 i.
Speaker:Track 3: Just think of the line where it's like wire uh this is like the uh like all
Speaker:Track 3: the cottage on the lake this is the whole reason we were friends with stifler
Speaker:Track 3: all these years it's like they didn't have that money.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah that's true that's true yeah and stifler gets a bus to take them to the
Speaker:Track 1: house too like it's an insane uh you know just all of that is insane well chad yeah i.
Speaker:Track 4: Was going to talk about incel culture.
Speaker:Track 1: Oh okay and.
Speaker:Track 4: And how in this, especially at this time, it was still very much in its nascent form.
Speaker:Track 4: And there was that sense of like, as you said, well, like, you know,
Speaker:Track 4: being on like chat boards and message boards and like talking about ways of advancing, of getting,
Speaker:Track 4: you know, like getting a girl, whatever.
Speaker:Track 4: And prior to this, incel culture was not solely male dominated.
Speaker:Track 4: it was it didn't it was it was more about people who just alone didn't matter your gender but
Speaker:Track 4: As time went by, and this is what you see now.
Speaker:Track 4: Incel culture has metastasized in a way that is far different than this,
Speaker:Track 4: whereas now there is no community in the like, oh, we're here to support each
Speaker:Track 4: other in moving forward.
Speaker:Track 4: It's like, no, we are here to commiserate and demonize the opposite sex and
Speaker:Track 4: to reinforce the notion that not only so like because we didn't,
Speaker:Track 4: you know, we can't get the girl.
Speaker:Track 4: Now we're just going to constantly like reinforce that you shouldn't even and
Speaker:Track 4: that it's actually bad and demonize women.
Speaker:Track 4: And if anybody breaks out of that mold, they are torn down and they are forcibly
Speaker:Track 4: ejected and demonized themselves because there is, you know,
Speaker:Track 4: it is gotten is way beyond what it started as, which was already fucking bad.
Speaker:Track 4: And now it's even, you know.
Speaker:Track 4: It's really become this notion of the aggrieved party,
Speaker:Track 4: which is like what has dominated American culture, the idea that you're the
Speaker:Track 4: victim, even if you are in power, even if you're the privileged party,
Speaker:Track 4: you're the victim, and you can hold that over oppressed people.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah i mean if if we want to get like a bit
Speaker:Track 2: technical about incel culture there are three the like the
Speaker:Track 2: psl score um the do you know about this at
Speaker:Track 2: all like how they rate their like whatever like
Speaker:Track 2: their faces no i've not i've not heard the psl score okay so
Speaker:Track 2: i i've watched too much clavicular once again because a lot of
Speaker:Track 2: what i do is undermining right-wing propaganda and unfortunately this like nasty
Speaker:Track 2: ass eugenics speaking of eugenics by the way there are only two black people
Speaker:Track 2: that speak in this film i think the choir teacher and another choir person i
Speaker:Track 2: think who's coded as gay um because he kind of tells what is written i view as his boyfriend and.
Speaker:Track 1: Then there's the asian character for the male flying.
Speaker:Track 2: Yes so great representation everyone good work american pie hey.
Speaker:Track 3: We already established this film is progressive.
Speaker:Track 2: It's woke it's woke it's a woke film,
Speaker:Track 2: But, uh, it's, uh, the PSL score, it's, it's like, like your canthal tilt is
Speaker:Track 2: worth a certain amount, the amount of like your nose arches.
Speaker:Track 2: And like, it's, it's, if you've ever seen the Chad picture and like what human
Speaker:Track 2: faces like they think are meant to look like, it's like you're far deviation away from them.
Speaker:Track 2: But PSL has actually nothing to do with like the actual things.
Speaker:Track 2: It stands for the three forums, which like in cell culture as a whole came from.
Speaker:Track 2: Right. Which is pickup artist hate.
Speaker:Track 2: That's like the OG one. And then which is split off into slut hate.
Speaker:Track 2: Right. Which is the type of thing you're talking about, which is just like explicitly
Speaker:Track 2: like women, like women are the problem.
Speaker:Track 2: It is like this feminism and then also just like straight up women.
Speaker:Track 2: And then it became and then looks maxing PSL.
Speaker:Track 2: Right. And I think those are three kind of like maybe stages,
Speaker:Track 2: but then also like approaches that are happening here, which is like pickup
Speaker:Track 2: artist hate is like, oh, I tried to learn it and they suck.
Speaker:Track 2: Like all of this advice sucks. And I think at a certain point,
Speaker:Track 2: like that's where pickup artist hate started out pretty innocuous being like pickup artists suck.
Speaker:Track 2: But it's like the type of people that want pickup artists are complaining about
Speaker:Track 2: them. So then they all come together and they're like, oh, but like maybe let's try.
Speaker:Track 2: But also it sucks. and that's a little bit what that's a little bit what like
Speaker:Track 2: Jim ends up in right he's like I tried all the stuff I tried like everything.
Speaker:Track 2: Fuck it I'm gonna go with the girl that I'm not actually that attracted to but
Speaker:Track 2: like she's the only one left right and Kevin is,
Speaker:Track 2: I would say is doing looks maxing, right? He's like, he's like,
Speaker:Track 2: like, like sex maxing, like he's like learning how to eat pussy.
Speaker:Track 2: And like, that's like, he's trying to be better just so he can increase his sexual value.
Speaker:Track 2: So he doesn't have to say I love you, which is the biggest fear of any of these men to be a human.
Speaker:Track 2: And then like, so like, like slut hate is like, just the explicitly misogynist
Speaker:Track 2: stuff didn't like come out where it's like just women.
Speaker:Track 2: I think Jim represents a little bit of that um and then
Speaker:Track 2: oz like is kind of like trashed on by the guys a little
Speaker:Track 2: bit for like like cuck maxing i think
Speaker:Track 2: it was what the term might be which is or gesture maxing
Speaker:Track 2: you know like you're just like you're going and you're singing that's silly
Speaker:Track 2: you're just doing the thing that females want you know how dare you um you're
Speaker:Track 2: not like being a chad you're like singing and somehow it works um and then like
Speaker:Track 2: he's also played off as like you know uh this suddenly becoming a human which
Speaker:Track 2: is like a little shamed as well there's.
Speaker:Track 1: No red pills in this movie right like this is like the matrix came out the same
Speaker:Track 1: year as this so they hadn't coined well.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah none of the actual like things of insult culture
Speaker:Track 2: are here right but all of like the energies all of the all of the underlying
Speaker:Track 2: presuppositions like it was striking to me how much how similar was and i think
Speaker:Track 2: there are other ways you can read this um but it was like they are involuntary
Speaker:Track 2: celibates that's like the entry point of this is like we want to get laid which
Speaker:Track 2: in fairness is like high school i.
Speaker:Track 1: Mean Even if it wasn't, even if incel culture was only like in its infancy,
Speaker:Track 1: where, as you said, Bill, about the person who wrote the screenplay,
Speaker:Track 1: the people existed, it just, there was no term for this, right?
Speaker:Track 1: So, I mean, it's just sort of like, if an incel that could write
Speaker:Track 1: raunchy male misogynistic characters
Speaker:Track 1: in a funny screenplay did was like
Speaker:Track 1: capable of doing that i think this is the product of
Speaker:Track 1: that i mean i it's kind of hard after all the
Speaker:Track 1: things you're saying well i'm to not see it in
Speaker:Track 1: that way even if i just
Speaker:Track 1: i don't know if i wonder whether the the writer meant it
Speaker:Track 1: to be that way or just sort of one of these things we talk about a lot on the
Speaker:Track 1: show is a character a writer might put sort of neoliberal ideas into a anti-communist
Speaker:Track 1: it's not necessarily because they're trying to but that's just how they that's
Speaker:Track 1: their perception of the world yeah his perception of the world is this so the.
Speaker:Track 4: Notion of i'm like the notion of
Speaker:Track 4: separating art from the artist is a false notion
Speaker:Track 4: like i'm sorry you i
Speaker:Track 4: know people post-modernist people they're gonna
Speaker:Track 4: fucking disagree with that and they're wrong like they're
Speaker:Track 4: just wrong you're incorrect your
Speaker:Track 4: opinion on this is wrong you cannot separate
Speaker:Track 4: the art from the artist i say this as a person who
Speaker:Track 4: writes and creates things and does creative
Speaker:Track 4: stuff and i have literally written stuff and then gone back and read it and
Speaker:Track 4: be like i didn't even intend to put that in here i didn't intend to write this
Speaker:Track 4: allegorical thing that references something else i didn't intend that But looking
Speaker:Track 4: at it now, I'm like, oh, no,
Speaker:Track 4: that's what that is. You cannot separate art from the artist.
Speaker:Track 4: I cannot believe that you can't write these movies and then not in some way
Speaker:Track 4: have in your brain those things. It's impossible.
Speaker:Track 2: Jk rowling.
Speaker:Track 4: Is an anti-semi she wrote the goblins that way end of conversation.
Speaker:Track 2: She was incredibly diverse in her racism it was kind of like yeah she covered all specks like,
Speaker:Track 2: she really did like she's a dei fascist it's
Speaker:Track 2: incredible absolutely no but i i
Speaker:Track 2: agree i so i don't i also think like i think
Speaker:Track 2: the way the media covers incel culture as if it's some like you know
Speaker:Track 2: you can draw a circle around it's just these freaks online it's not
Speaker:Track 2: accurate it's how a bunch of men talk about
Speaker:Track 2: all the things all the time and it's just
Speaker:Track 2: like a natural consequence of it and this is something incels will
Speaker:Track 2: talk about themselves they're like we just take what is already
Speaker:Track 2: assumed to be true right which is like life's better if you
Speaker:Track 2: look like a straight white male you know things like things that are generally
Speaker:Track 2: like true in society and taking them to their logical conclusion and
Speaker:Track 2: like we see how they get there and a bunch of people
Speaker:Track 2: did it a bunch of times and so i think like when
Speaker:Track 2: i'm saying like it fits this and this and this it's that they all just doing
Speaker:Track 2: a very similar thing um i are the other
Speaker:Track 2: like thing here is the
Speaker:Track 2: way i also know it's not like like actively trying to
Speaker:Track 2: make a comment is with how individualistic like america is
Speaker:Track 2: the way they also look max is like they all get each other condoms like he's
Speaker:Track 2: handing out condoms right to all of each other and he's yeah and he's and he's
Speaker:Track 2: like like they're planning together um and they're like i i think at one point
Speaker:Track 2: they like get like mouthwash together or something like to like make kissing better yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: They're all like in the in the hot dog restaurant like yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah yeah so like they have community but only to be the worst people ever um
Speaker:Track 2: it's very american that's so true you know we have socialism only for the military
Speaker:Track 2: like we only have mutual aid when it's like to conspire to commit sexual offenses
Speaker:Track 2: against women and it was just so deeply american i was like oh.
Speaker:Track 1: Setting aside.
Speaker:Track 2: The pie the pie thing was random by the way you know he just went into that
Speaker:Track 2: and he was like i want to see someone fuck a pie.
Speaker:Track 1: Well i have a question did you watch the non the non-rated version or like the
Speaker:Track 1: regular version do you know i.
Speaker:Track 2: Don't know i saw i saw his bare ass on a pie but i don't know.
Speaker:Track 1: Okay so that's then that's the unrated one so the original one in the theater
Speaker:Track 1: he's just standing up in the kitchen with it just against whereas the unrated
Speaker:Track 1: one he's like lying on top of that pie yeah yeah he's getting into it like the,
Speaker:Track 1: the you know the unrated one that they've released later what else and what.
Speaker:Track 4: Else is in the unrated that's not in that's the only.
Speaker:Track 1: One i have no idea i'm guessing maybe like the the strip scene with with her
Speaker:Track 1: is like maybe slightly more explicit yeah that's.
Speaker:Track 4: Pretty yeah okay yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: I don't think that would have flown in an r-rated movie at the time and maybe
Speaker:Track 1: either i don't know what else there I'm sure he can find what's in the,
Speaker:Track 1: in it, but yeah, I wonder how many pie takes they had to have for that.
Speaker:Track 1: That's like, he also just ruined his entire life.
Speaker:Track 3: I mean, he calls that out. It's in fucking Jane, Silent Bob, Shrek Back.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 4: To be fair, Jason Biggs is a shitty person and he just.
Speaker:Track 1: Is he?
Speaker:Track 4: Yes.
Speaker:Track 1: I, I didn't know.
Speaker:Track 4: Like.
Speaker:Track 1: I mean, I'm not surprised.
Speaker:Track 4: Jason Biggs has a history of doing shitty things and saying shitty things publicly,
Speaker:Track 4: um, and publicly embarrassing other people and using other people as like the
Speaker:Track 4: butt of jokes, including, um,
Speaker:Track 4: there was a pretty like,
Speaker:Track 4: uh, public thing about.
Speaker:Track 1: Oh does it was it when he didn't he say something uh i'm gonna go to his wikipedia
Speaker:Track 1: page oh so he he made jokes about the missing malaysia airlines flight and then
Speaker:Track 1: another one that was also he mocked the death of someone on bachelorette so
Speaker:Track 1: he seems to just he also have a really publicly terrible along with.
Speaker:Track 4: His wife basically like uh without their consent like,
Speaker:Track 4: involved like a couple like sex
Speaker:Track 4: workers in some kind of like prank or some shit like that yeah he's a bad.
Speaker:Track 1: He's also a zionist yes he's.
Speaker:Track 4: A shitty person.
Speaker:Track 1: He signed he signed the uh no hostage left behind on october whatever when they signed that thing so.
Speaker:Track 4: He's a shitty person so i'm glad his his career never picked up again really successfully fucker.
Speaker:Track 1: So it's like a slightly like maybe lighter note but i
Speaker:Track 1: think maybe in the context of all this what do you make of
Speaker:Track 1: we haven't talked about the eugene levy character so apparently as like
Speaker:Track 1: a creating of this he read the script and said i'm not doing
Speaker:Track 1: this film and then he said you know maybe i'll do it
Speaker:Track 1: if you let me change the character so all of
Speaker:Track 1: his lines are basically ad-libbed so none of them were
Speaker:Track 1: really scripted for him and originally the dad was supposed to be more of one
Speaker:Track 1: of those um sort of uh what's the term sort of over the top you know i'm going
Speaker:Track 1: to be your friend dad but then he wanted to make it take it to like this more
Speaker:Track 1: comedic sense of trying to have these sex conversations with him.
Speaker:Track 1: Instead, instead of being the mean girl mom, it's this character, you know?
Speaker:Track 1: And so I don't know how he fits in and how his advice works.
Speaker:Track 1: impacts his character the the role of jim what do you think i.
Speaker:Track 2: Don't even remember what he actually ends up like saying like what is he what
Speaker:Track 2: is like what does the advice end up being i know that he's kind of like the
Speaker:Track 2: straight man for like a lot of
Speaker:Track 2: jokes or like he's like walks in to him fucking a pie and being like oops.
Speaker:Track 1: The first one is he brings him a bunch of porn magazines
Speaker:Track 1: oh yeah it's just basically describing different
Speaker:Track 1: magazines he's like this one is called shaved as you can see you know and and
Speaker:Track 1: then later he brings him uh he gives is he i think they sort of have before
Speaker:Track 1: he goes to prom he's basically giving him the advice of like wear a condom but
Speaker:Track 1: also like the tennis allegory that's it the tennis analogy what's that yeah.
Speaker:Track 3: It's like it's it's fun but it's not a game just not a game.
Speaker:Track 1: I think his best, the best line from Eugene Levy was when after he comes in
Speaker:Track 1: and he's fucking the pie and they look at them, like they have the scene of
Speaker:Track 1: them at the table and the pie is just destroyed.
Speaker:Track 1: I can't believe they didn't throw it away immediately.
Speaker:Track 1: It's just sitting on the table where they're going to eat dinner.
Speaker:Track 1: But he says, you know, we'll just tell your mom we ate, we ate it all.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: I just, that line just, I don't know. Just, uh, on. Can't tell if it's funny or just disturbing.
Speaker:Track 2: I i thought it was hilarious i thought it like that was like that was
Speaker:Track 2: one of the like bad like things i could genuinely laugh at because i was like
Speaker:Track 2: this is not like my woke self doesn't actually find this reprehensible yeah
Speaker:Track 2: like i'm too woked up to like really enjoy a lot of i'm like ah this is not
Speaker:Track 2: a but um but uh i i do become like a blue haired like lip whenever i'm reading
Speaker:Track 2: these and being like this is sexist this is not this is not acceptable.
Speaker:Track 4: That's what warden i just call or ward refers to as we're just being miserable marxists yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: Like we can't enjoy anything and like him fucking a pie at least was
Speaker:Track 2: good but i will say like the woke take on the pie is like
Speaker:Track 2: where that came from was someone mentioned that like like like third base was
Speaker:Track 2: like a warm pie is like and then he's like oh this is what pussy will feel like
Speaker:Track 2: um which like i can't attest to but i presume not and he and so he fucks a pie but like that's,
Speaker:Track 2: like the name of the movie is American pie because it's an allegory for vagina.
Speaker:Track 2: And, um, I just find it interesting that like they, they, we're saying they
Speaker:Track 2: objectify women in many ways, they treat women as objects, but like the whole
Speaker:Track 2: movie is named after a literal object, which is an allegory for the thing they're going for.
Speaker:Track 2: Um, and so in a way it's very random, but in another,
Speaker:Track 2: like the whole entire thing is literally them just like thinking they are a
Speaker:Track 2: woman and thinking that them like eating the pie eventually or fucking the pie
Speaker:Track 2: um will be like their reward for doing everything right um also one of the few
Speaker:Track 2: times we hear from the mother making the pie.
Speaker:Track 1: Which is sort of the complete opposite
Speaker:Track 1: of thinking of don mclean's song
Speaker:Track 1: american pie it's sort of like taking that song and just
Speaker:Track 1: absolutely shitting on it in a version of like we're
Speaker:Track 1: just gonna fuck the thing that you were trying to critique you know of the war
Speaker:Track 1: and the terrible things about america and i mean i don't think that came into
Speaker:Track 1: their mind i'm sure at some point the name might have the movie might have come
Speaker:Track 1: later after they had that scene they're like oh america pie you know i don't i don't know but.
Speaker:Track 4: Yeah the movie fuck i forget what he originally.
Speaker:Track 1: Was there a different name for the movie originally i could know.
Speaker:Track 4: I mean the original movie was untitled teenage sex comedy that can be made for
Speaker:Track 4: under 10 million dollars that most readers will probably hate but i think you
Speaker:Track 4: will love that's literally like i'm not joking like that's it's a mouthful but that's really fun.
Speaker:Track 1: He apparently wrote the he wrote the screenplay it said in three weeks um and then.
Speaker:Track 4: It was changed to great falls but that was then renamed america.
Speaker:Track 3: Great falls equally.
Speaker:Track 1: I guess they live in right surely.
Speaker:Track 4: As like a waterfall. I think that is, it's based on his, like the writer of,
Speaker:Track 4: Like, this is based on his, like, senior year of high school,
Speaker:Track 4: his, like, memory, and, like, inspired by his senior year of high school.
Speaker:Track 4: Which, again, we return to—.
Speaker:Track 3: He was Shermanator, wasn't he?
Speaker:Track 4: Like, we return to, like, you cannot separate art from the artist. This man—yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: Can we also mention, I think it has to be mentioned, is that the band playing
Speaker:Track 1: at the prom was called Arabian Nights. It's with a bunch of white people wearing
Speaker:Track 1: turbans and singing super racist songs.
Speaker:Track 1: And they said in the commentary about it that that was just meant to be like
Speaker:Track 1: the lamest prom you could think of.
Speaker:Track 1: But they're like, oh, maybe we'll just make the most racist prom we can think of. That was so bizarre.
Speaker:Track 4: Truly bizarre.
Speaker:Track 2: I didn't notice that.
Speaker:Track 4: When they cut to that lead singer with the giant turban, I was like,
Speaker:Track 4: what the fuck? What am I watching?
Speaker:Track 4: What the fuck is going on? Also, Blink-182 is in this.
Speaker:Track 2: On american pie like i i think if you
Speaker:Track 2: think about the movie like in the context of the name of the movie like american
Speaker:Track 2: pie is like ed with the dad he's kind
Speaker:Track 2: of respected even if he's kind of like awkward and like has his
Speaker:Track 2: own like weirdness as like a guy who has fucks fucked
Speaker:Track 2: and like does fuck and like can chill out because he
Speaker:Track 2: fucks you know and like that's like like like
Speaker:Track 2: what they're trying to become um and a lot of the movie can be
Speaker:Track 2: read as like them trying to become this like whatever type of
Speaker:Track 2: man fucks and gets like gets
Speaker:Track 2: women and like all the different ways you can do that and they have absolutely
Speaker:Track 2: no good examples of that but like american pie being like this like kind of
Speaker:Track 2: idealistic representation of like becoming a man in like the very american way
Speaker:Track 2: um and then all of them in their very in a classic teenage like like comedy
Speaker:Track 2: stumbling around and failing to do it.
Speaker:Track 4: I find the eugene i find eugene levy's character very interesting but also kind
Speaker:Track 4: of contradictory because, and I think that stems from the fact that,
Speaker:Track 4: he empathized most of his or all
Speaker:Track 4: of his shit like because he the
Speaker:Track 4: he's making the attempt to be
Speaker:Track 4: a like actual like role model and be
Speaker:Track 4: like you need you should be responsible and not
Speaker:Track 4: shaming him he doesn't shame him and
Speaker:Track 4: he's like be responsible and also like
Speaker:Track 4: you know like you should
Speaker:Track 4: have a partner you know like he it's kind
Speaker:Track 4: of like he's he doesn't fit like any he doesn't i i feel like he doesn't fit
Speaker:Track 4: into like a lot of it like perfectly he doesn't work perfectly because and i
Speaker:Track 4: think i think because eugene levy wouldn't do the script originally and he was
Speaker:Track 4: like well i'm what I want.
Speaker:Track 4: And I don't think Eugene Levy is, well, honestly, I, we watched that video that
Speaker:Track 4: like Evan shared about Eugene Levy talking about this.
Speaker:Track 4: Eugene Levy found the original script disgusting.
Speaker:Track 4: And like the, the, the, the character
Speaker:Track 4: of the father, he found his behavior disgusting and wouldn't do that.
Speaker:Track 4: And like, so then he brings what he brought to it, which was try to stay within
Speaker:Track 4: the emotional context of the film –.
Speaker:Track 4: Also be like at least somewhat of a decent you know father figure kind of you know role.
Speaker:Track 1: He tries to do the right thing i mean i think he's trying and it's i mean you
Speaker:Track 1: know talking to your kid and bringing them pornography magazines it's you know
Speaker:Track 1: uh i assume that was in the script but then what he said to him maybe during
Speaker:Track 1: that scene was different so i mean i bring my.
Speaker:Track 4: Kid porn but she's a dog so like she doesn't even know what the fuck's going on you know.
Speaker:Track 2: Just pictures of dogs uh i also think the like you have to have a partner advice
Speaker:Track 2: is fundamentally weird um because like what do you mean like what do you mean
Speaker:Track 2: by like is he trying to encourage him to want to fuck like i i you know that was.
Speaker:Track 4: Weird because i'm just like does he think that his son wants to.
Speaker:Track 2: Just masturbate that's exactly the no exactly he's.
Speaker:Track 3: Worried that his son is just a fucking loser who's just spending all his time
Speaker:Track 3: jacking off and he's like hey you know there's women out there right.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah but.
Speaker:Track 4: Like the implication is not like that he can't but that like that's what he wants it's so funny.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah this.
Speaker:Track 4: Is his goal is.
Speaker:Track 2: There's by the way the implication that married people don't masturbate
Speaker:Track 2: as well he's like i don't because now i have a wife like it's a very odd i don't
Speaker:Track 2: know it's a very odd thing to say um because it's not representative of i think
Speaker:Track 2: any form of reality where teenage men like teenage boys have to be encouraged to want a partner in.
Speaker:Track 1: Some weird way his advice eugene levy's advice almost is trying to steer him
Speaker:Track 1: away from being an incel in some ways like you can have a partner and like have
Speaker:Track 1: a committed relationship like me.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah and.
Speaker:Track 1: He doesn't take his advice.
Speaker:Track 2: I agree if that's what he said but like it read a lot more like using parental
Speaker:Track 2: shame to be like but you want to fuck right like that's what i and like,
Speaker:Track 2: It kind of had the tone of advice, and I think it makes sense if he ad-libbed
Speaker:Track 2: it, because it had the tone of being a father that's trying to do the right
Speaker:Track 2: thing and trying to tell you how to engage in that relationship responsibly.
Speaker:Track 2: Objectively, that's not a responsible—being masturbating isn't as ontologically
Speaker:Track 2: good as sex is not a message anyone believes. I don't know. It's a strange thing.
Speaker:Track 2: yeah oh i also wanted to know just this came
Speaker:Track 2: up is the rules they set for the pact one line
Speaker:Track 2: stuck out being like it has to be real consensual
Speaker:Track 2: sex right and they're by the way they're counterfactuals
Speaker:Track 2: like a sex worker which has its own commentary on whatever but also the fact
Speaker:Track 2: that they only care about consent insofar as it is pleasing the other men like
Speaker:Track 2: like because they do violate the consent of the woman by like like filming her
Speaker:Track 2: but like they only care about like earning it to like gain the respect of men.
Speaker:Track 4: Everything about i mean like to
Speaker:Track 4: put within the context of like the larger system
Speaker:Track 4: everything about this is just about power
Speaker:Track 4: and impressing other people you see as
Speaker:Track 4: having power and the only people that you
Speaker:Track 4: know within this system that men see as
Speaker:Track 4: having power are other men and like
Speaker:Track 4: that's all it is that's like the entire like looks maxing
Speaker:Track 4: thing i can't believe i said that word out loud i'm fucking 45
Speaker:Track 4: years old that never come out of my mouth before my life um like the entire
Speaker:Track 4: like or like all of that it's like the it's all done for the male gaze all of
Speaker:Track 4: it but it's all done for this for the straight male gaze,
Speaker:Track 4: gays g-a-y-s yeah yeah sure yeah i got you yeah no i know.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah whenever anyone sells male gaze i go hell yes brother yes not.
Speaker:Track 4: No the wrong the bad kind i.
Speaker:Track 2: Don't know these twinks are out here the peter tealites they're around if you
Speaker:Track 2: don't think peter teal is on reddit being like what's my psl score i don't know
Speaker:Track 2: what you're living in yeah when he's not scouting twinks.
Speaker:Track 4: It's all done for the male gaze. That's all, it's only done for the appreciation
Speaker:Track 4: and like risk, you know, like the appreciation of other men.
Speaker:Track 4: That's it. It is, it is like truly the notion of like,
Speaker:Track 4: and what we've talked about before, like it's alienation and how,
Speaker:Track 4: like when you become alienated and when you don't understand,
Speaker:Track 4: when individualism leads to emotional stunting, because you can't,
Speaker:Track 4: you know, like we are fed this line that the only way you can be who you really
Speaker:Track 4: are is to like be yourself.
Speaker:Track 4: And, you know, like you, you just work on yourself and you just,
Speaker:Track 4: you know, and it's like, no, being hyper individualist emotionally stunts you.
Speaker:Track 4: And it makes impossible for you to become a full person because you are never
Speaker:Track 4: capable of looking beyond a very shallow and, you know,
Speaker:Track 4: sheltered, uh, and stymied kind of like perception of behavior and waste that
Speaker:Track 4: you can interact with other people, because that's how you grow as a person
Speaker:Track 4: is by engaging with other people.
Speaker:Track 4: And that's how you can, you know, develop. And it's like in this,
Speaker:Track 4: you're only looking at one perspective. That's it.
Speaker:Track 4: It's just this specific thing and beyond that none of it matters.
Speaker:Track 2: Um and within particular parameters right i
Speaker:Track 2: also think like yeah yeah like they're not
Speaker:Track 2: actually this is i i think something get people get wrong talking about insults
Speaker:Track 2: as well is i think it's absolutely not about what the woman thinks i think that's
Speaker:Track 2: true although they are terrified of being embarrassed like it is genuinely psychic
Speaker:Track 2: damage to them when a woman perceives them poorly that i think is like true
Speaker:Track 2: they can be really negatively affected,
Speaker:Track 2: like when he like comes really quickly in front of the whole school.
Speaker:Track 2: Like it is partially because he's like embarrassed about what the girl next
Speaker:Track 2: to him thinks, partially because
Speaker:Track 2: everyone's watching and it's like friends will look down on him for it.
Speaker:Track 4: I think it's for the same kind of thing. It's because now you've been made to
Speaker:Track 4: feel less by a person you perceive of as lesser.
Speaker:Track 4: The fact that they are now looking down on you is an attack.
Speaker:Track 4: It is the, it is why it is why, you know, we have, if we were to,
Speaker:Track 4: you know, to look at, you know, the circumstance now of like,
Speaker:Track 4: you know, how the shooting in Minneapolis by that ice agent. Right.
Speaker:Track 4: And we look at his history and why he reacted that way. Why did he react that way?
Speaker:Track 4: Partly because he saw somebody that he felt he had been previously slighted
Speaker:Track 4: by a person within her position,
Speaker:Track 4: a lesbian woman that he sees as lesser than him has now put him in his place and shown him.
Speaker:Track 4: So he reacted violently and angry because how dare this lesser being looked down upon me.
Speaker:Track 2: And in a more lighthearted example, we have Clavicular doing so many roids, he can't even come.
Speaker:Track 2: And I don't know if you all know this plot line. He doesn't even like fuck women.
Speaker:Track 2: Did you know Clavicular?
Speaker:Track 4: I don't know who that is.
Speaker:Track 2: Did you not see Clavicular gets frame-mogged while jester-gooning and like this tweet go around?
Speaker:Track 3: Anyone on the podcast?
Speaker:Track 4: I don't know what any of those words mean.
Speaker:Track 3: I know some of those words. But I know you're losing Bill.
Speaker:Track 4: I don't know what any of that means.
Speaker:Track 2: And no one frame mogged frame
Speaker:Track 2: mogged anyone anyone clav is like the
Speaker:Track 2: like new incel on the block but he like is like a 19 year old that is clearly
Speaker:Track 2: just like has a special interest and looks maxing and is like the worst person
Speaker:Track 2: you've ever met um he went on adam friedman's show like he's like going really
Speaker:Track 2: popular um he also ran like a person over with his car but it's legal in florida
Speaker:Track 2: apparently it's suspected that peter.
Speaker:Track 3: Teal is his uh sugar daddy.
Speaker:Track 2: You know what totally would expect it by
Speaker:Track 2: like that's so peter teal-esque i would love to find
Speaker:Track 2: out that like those two are speaking because that would make so
Speaker:Track 2: much sense but like clavicular like famously takes so
Speaker:Track 2: many roids that he doesn't like ejaculate with
Speaker:Track 2: like functional semen so obviously this
Speaker:Track 2: isn't about like be like getting with women
Speaker:Track 2: this doesn't work like he took so many like human growth hormones like he has
Speaker:Track 2: erectile dysfunction like he's way too open online by the way i would love to
Speaker:Track 2: not know this about anyone but here we are so it's it's absolutely not about
Speaker:Track 2: actually doing it he said accurately it's more about the opportunity to because
Speaker:Track 2: it's a status symbol and that's this whole movie it's like bill like achieving that status he's.
Speaker:Track 4: From new jersey.
Speaker:Track 2: That would make sense he lives in florida now good.
Speaker:Track 4: Fuck off to florida that.
Speaker:Track 1: Makes more sense actually.
Speaker:Track 2: Truly truly yeah.
Speaker:Track 4: That doesn't make.
Speaker:Track 2: Sense will.
Speaker:Track 4: Don't talk shit about my home state.
Speaker:Track 2: Oh, God. Oh, no, I will. Like, New Jerseyites, say what we will about New Jerseyites,
Speaker:Track 2: I'll say nothing because of the following.
Speaker:Track 2: They are the most loyal to their, like, you would think it was promised them 2,000 years ago.
Speaker:Track 2: The extent to which New Jerseyites will defend New Jersey is wild for being the armpit of New York.
Speaker:Track 4: Like, it's ridiculous. Like, Evan, delete this episode. It's done.
Speaker:Track 4: We're done. We're done here.
Speaker:Track 2: You can't even put like pump your own gas and you have patriotism about a state.
Speaker:Track 4: I can that's wild that's why i don't have patriot but i don't need to but i don't see and.
Speaker:Track 3: That yeah that's why i believe the material conditions of not having to pump
Speaker:Track 3: your own gas in new jersey has led to the reason why new jersey drivers suck
Speaker:Track 3: ass at driving they got to.
Speaker:Track 4: Suffer some hardship sorry ward we do we know that you're wrong on this and
Speaker:Track 4: you don't actually think the new jersey drivers are bad the rest of you are
Speaker:Track 4: bad at driving you are not fucking prepared for us that's what it is,
Speaker:Track 4: there's more of us and yeah we're the most patriotic for our state because we
Speaker:Track 4: are the least patriotic state in the country we hate america the most statistically hold accurately,
Speaker:Track 4: we hate america the most that makes us points for that so.
Speaker:Track 1: Are you saying you don't have much american pie in uh in uh in new jerseyville then.
Speaker:Track 4: No with cannoli oh.
Speaker:Track 2: God that's equally.
Speaker:Track 4: Phallic oh totally that's not true they use costco pies by.
Speaker:Track 1: The way i.
Speaker:Track 4: Mean you ever seen the end of a cannoli there's you know again the cream that's
Speaker:Track 4: it's also phallic it's both yeah shout out damn.
Speaker:Track 2: Right i I support it.
Speaker:Track 3: Wait, how many pies did they go through, Evan?
Speaker:Track 1: Oh, I couldn't find that. I just saw that they used pies from Costco.
Speaker:Track 4: Clavicular has labeled Gavin Newsom a Chad. I'm on his Wikipedia now.
Speaker:Track 2: And he labeled J.D. Vance.
Speaker:Track 3: I was wondering what you were searching over there, Bill. Once I saw you turn
Speaker:Track 3: and start typing, I was like, I wonder what he's searching.
Speaker:Track 2: No, clavicular is a concerning development in the American ethos.
Speaker:Track 2: Especially how popular he's becoming. He is cultural fascism incarnate.
Speaker:Track 4: I only learn, I learn about these young people from the A Bit Fruity pod.
Speaker:Track 4: That's where I learn about young people things.
Speaker:Track 2: I like the A Bit Fruity pod.
Speaker:Track 4: There are times when he talks about things and I'm like, he said something once
Speaker:Track 4: and I was just like, I forget what he, and I was like, he's so young.
Speaker:Track 4: He's so young. Yes, it is a very good podcast.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah, all the podcasts I listen to are depressing. I listen to Behind the Bastards,
Speaker:Track 2: Which is a banger, but really depressing because it's about evil people.
Speaker:Track 2: I listen to, wait, cool people that do cool stuff. Also a banger.
Speaker:Track 2: But also We Have Little Guys by Molly Conger.
Speaker:Track 2: 10 out of 10. It's about neo-Nazis and the neo-Nazi movement.
Speaker:Track 2: Banger, but really depressing. So, yeah. I have uplifting things every day, as y'all can tell.
Speaker:Track 1: That's why you need to talk about American Pie. But then we devolve into a cult.
Speaker:Track 2: It's fully no it's fully like nascent american
Speaker:Track 2: cultural fascism absolutely like it is it
Speaker:Track 2: is the way like the whole entire story arc is the development from like teenagers
Speaker:Track 2: who are just like open cultural fascists into like like what would be perceived
Speaker:Track 2: as like normal men who just like own one woman you know and like how you go
Speaker:Track 2: about getting them is the storyline um and i was Oh, my goodness.
Speaker:Track 2: And by the way, cultural like American Pie woke 2.0 will be a polycule all trying
Speaker:Track 2: to like go into monogamous relationships. I'm calling it now.
Speaker:Track 2: And I would like to produce that movie.
Speaker:Track 2: I would like it to be a polycule of mixed genders, all NBs, and the question
Speaker:Track 2: is how they end up in monogamous relationships or how they bring someone new
Speaker:Track 2: into the polycule. I'd love to see it.
Speaker:Track 4: Calvicular lives not only in Florida, he lives in Miami.
Speaker:Track 3: Which is...
Speaker:Track 2: Notably worse.
Speaker:Track 4: The Florida of Florida.
Speaker:Track 3: It's like Florida City.
Speaker:Track 1: The Florida of Florida.
Speaker:Track 4: Yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: Any final thoughts on this? I feel like we might have covered most of your stuff
Speaker:Track 1: here, but I want to make sure you've got everything.
Speaker:Track 2: Do I have any other notes? Yeah.
Speaker:Track 2: No, I have too many maxings in my comments.
Speaker:Track 2: I think I said something pilled like 10 times and then fraud maxing like 10 times.
Speaker:Track 2: I watched this movie in the bath with like two glasses of wine.
Speaker:Track 2: Really the only way you could tolerate it.
Speaker:Track 3: Same.
Speaker:Track 2: At the end, I felt the same, just more metaphysically. I just wanted to note, yeah. What?
Speaker:Track 4: I did see this. I mean, the first time I did see this was like,
Speaker:Track 4: when it came out so i was stone cold sober because.
Speaker:Track 2: That's wild that's wild i watched girls
Speaker:Track 2: rules on an edible but um i want
Speaker:Track 2: to yeah on the eastern european girl like this the only note
Speaker:Track 2: i want to add there was this is like so classic like
Speaker:Track 2: introducing like capitalism to former communism and also the relationship
Speaker:Track 2: that like a very real sex trade that did happen
Speaker:Track 2: with like mail order wives from your eastern europe it
Speaker:Track 2: is that characterization just brought down um and like if that's not really
Speaker:Track 2: like it's a caricature but it's also a thing that actually happened which is
Speaker:Track 2: like eastern european women being brought over for like pure sex and that's
Speaker:Track 2: where that came from and a way that like the west dominated the east so that's
Speaker:Track 2: like the like major like nationalist thing which is more of just a character so.
Speaker:Track 1: After she gets like deported or sent home because of
Speaker:Track 1: like her sponsors seeing the video later you
Speaker:Track 1: see jim and her like
Speaker:Track 1: uh video know like scamping or whatever they you know and i find that extremely
Speaker:Track 1: weird because somehow this humiliation and disgusting thing that he did isn't
Speaker:Track 1: somehow viewed as a big deal.
Speaker:Track 2: Like they.
Speaker:Track 4: Kind of just wash.
Speaker:Track 1: Over this disgusting thing like oh yeah like we're still like pen pals or you know.
Speaker:Track 4: Dating or whatever it's it's like the claim that like you know when a woman
Speaker:Track 4: gets raped she actually wants it like that's she wants it.
Speaker:Track 3: It's that same vein.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah i think it's the most quintessential like women
Speaker:Track 2: are scared of being murdered and raped and men are scared of being embarrassed
Speaker:Track 2: and like this movie plays them as equal because he gets embarrassed he came
Speaker:Track 2: early so actually it's the same as as being uh like like cyber raped in front
Speaker:Track 2: of the whole entire school and so actually like if anything he got embarrassed
Speaker:Track 2: twice because he came early twice so it's even so why should why would she care
Speaker:Track 2: like that's how i like yeah.
Speaker:Track 1: Yeah i mean geez wow.
Speaker:Track 2: What a beautiful movie around well.
Speaker:Track 1: Let me ask you this sometimes sometimes we ask sometimes we don't there's not
Speaker:Track 1: related to what you just said like would you tell someone would like would you
Speaker:Track 1: recommend someone who hasn't seen i mean probably if someone listened to this
Speaker:Track 1: they probably have seen it but if they hadn't would you tell them to go see this movie.
Speaker:Track 2: Yeah people should watch this movie it's like with a critical eye
Speaker:Track 2: like it'll make you cringe and cry but it's i think
Speaker:Track 2: like i don't know so okay what i'll say is like
Speaker:Track 2: i spend too much time online obviously and all of my time is spent being gaslit
Speaker:Track 2: by blue maga and fake wokers and like conservatives that are better at lying
Speaker:Track 2: like the kirk carlsonites and we're told that none of this is real and we're
Speaker:Track 2: told that all of this is nonsense but if you go back like 20 years then you can just be like.
Speaker:Track 2: There it is you know it's like they weren't lying about it
Speaker:Track 2: this is just what it is and like if you go back
Speaker:Track 2: with all of that and like you go if you think
Speaker:Track 2: about all the things you're told that aren't real like sexism misogyny etc
Speaker:Track 2: and you go and see them do it actively yeah it's fantastic like
Speaker:Track 2: it's it's really like very freeing to be like oh i like
Speaker:Track 2: i'm being gaslit actively by culture right now for like
Speaker:Track 2: a million dollar like billion dollar propaganda machines not to so
Speaker:Track 2: yeah i thought it was really like nice to see like just
Speaker:Track 2: well like like freeing from gaslighting obviously bigot
Speaker:Track 2: obviously bigotry isn't good but i would prefer the bigotry
Speaker:Track 2: be out in the open than like lied about you know
Speaker:Track 2: um to an extent like it's it's more comforting for me cognitively
Speaker:Track 2: to be like yeah this is evil and bad and then everyone could go and
Speaker:Track 2: go yeah this is evil and bad um and like then we're making like sequels and
Speaker:Track 2: prequels you know and also it's like i didn't find it like that funny but like
Speaker:Track 2: it was watchable like it was actually surprisingly digestible like i there was
Speaker:Track 2: no point where i was like i need to click off of this is like difficult to watch
Speaker:Track 2: like narratively it was fine it's a kind of classic like american film.
Speaker:Track 4: Says a lot about america.
Speaker:Track 1: Awesome well will thank you so much for suggesting this film and uh coming on
Speaker:Track 1: to discuss it it was great to have you.
Speaker:Track 2: Happily thank you all so much for having me on yeah thank.
Speaker:Track 4: You for joining us of.
Speaker:Track 2: Course and.
Speaker:Track 1: You'll be able to check out your channel for people who maybe don't follow you
Speaker:Track 1: in the show notes and you've been listening to left of the ejector and we'll catch you next time.
